daijvina: <snip, to me>
Undrestroyed? Are you shitting me? The viking is almost dead outside of the nordic countries. People on tumblr kills it slowly by being what Odin would call, the wise man. Answer me dear tumblr person. Do you know who Ymir is? Do you know about the Boatman? Do you know about Fjorgyn? Do you know about Bor? I could list alot more but I asume you wouldn’t get it.
Marvel has been a part of destroying an already dying history and mythology, by making many people believe that is how the myths are. That Thorki excists in the mythology, let me tell you that. If any homosexuality was discovered by either viking or god. They would have been killed. I know, it’s horrible, but that is how the history and mythology is. Now understand, the viking is dying and you guys do nothing more than feeding him with the poisen of the midgardian serpent. He will die before the manwar starts
Sorry for cluttering up your browsing, dear followers, I couldn’t pass this up.
Where do I start? Okay, I admire your insistence that tumblr has any sort of significance in influencing the modern state of Norse mythology, and Heathenism. Perhaps tumblr would seem to be less of a gargantuan cultural force when off it. If tumblr did have any impact, I’d say it was for the better – there’s a good little community here of Heathens, academics (yup) and enthusiasts. And the Marvel movies you so despise (I see you like Tolkien and Doctor Who, so do I! And they’ve both had fun with Norse mythology), have, if anything, made a whole lot more people hear of Norse mythology for the very first time, start reading up on the source myths, and even to realise that Heathenism is their spiritual path. Isn’t that amazing? I thought so.
[I hope you have studied how living cultures operate, and that is through change, not stasis. Dead myths are ones that very few care about, very few talk about, that only live between the pages of a book. As I’ve posted about recently, the Western obsession with authenticity (arguably as part of its colonialist Orientalism), leads to an idealisation of stasis – and a preciousness over being the authentic holder of truth. It’s very apparent with Western travellers in non-Western countries, with Western attitudes to the fourth world, and many of the same modes of thought apply to visiting Western histories. All that is to say that “I’m more authentic than you” is a peculiar recent phenomenon, rather hipster, not at all Viking, and not even factually true.]
No one knows who Ymir is any more
Secondly, you do seem to be under the impression that you are special for knowing who Ymir is. Despite this, my reply to you that made reference to Ymir’s blood and teeth (an unfunny joke, I’ll admit) sailed right over your head, and my tags about Skrymir too. Please do be cautious of straw people.
Ruining Norse mythology since 1100 AD
I am always amazed and admiring for how many people on tumblr, some of whom also are fans of Marvel (goshhh), study the vast field of Norse mythology and know even more than I do. And they still like Marvel! And the 50 trillion other works of fiction that draw upon Norse mythology for inspiration! You can partly thank Tolkien for that (I mean, Gandalf is a dwarf, okay! Not a half-assed Odin!). And Wagner. I mean, gosh, the liberties he took! Iðunn isn’t Freia, okay! Killing Norse mythology! And the Vikings! Kids those days! Germans! And what about the Nazis who used Norse mythology imagery to support their white supremacist and nationalist ideals? Who organised under the cover of Norse mythology reading groups? Who used the imagery of Ragnarök to support ethnic cleansing? Who often subscribed to Heathen beliefs themselves? And the Neo-Nazis and many many many Asatru organisations today who carry on this tradition? Norse mythology! Killed! Dead! And we’re not even gonna start talking about the Christians including ol’ Snorri! Cos I’ll never stop! But nuuu, tumblr.com’s predilection for the recent Avengers movie is the greatest threat to the very existence of Norse mythology! Threatening to wipe it off the face of the earth! Books burnt at 451°F! Hard drives erased! Maybe the Odinists are right, and Loki (with Tom Hiddleston’s evil FACE) and his kids are orchestrating all this!
Vikings belong to meeee
If you are answering from a nationalist standpoint by any chance, and the way you express yourself, in this sort of incoherent paranoid hate-filled macho way, is in line with those who do (and/or fans of Amon Amarth etc), I’m going to ask, well, firstly, when you say “The viking is almost dead outside of the nordic countries” what do you mean exactly? My impression was that “Vikings”, as part of old Norse culture, ceased to exist nearly a millennia a go, but what do I know? If you mean, “dressing up as a Viking for fun and nostalgia”, or even “Making films about Vikings for fun and nostalgia” or “Making films about Viking beliefs for fun and nostalgia”, well, that does appear to be more alive and well than ever, in what is known as a “modern revival”, so I’m not really sure what you mean. If you mean “it’s really not fair how people outside of Scandinavia don’t dress up or write stories about Vikings for fun and nostalgia quite as much as within Scandinavia”, I could think of a few reasons.
If you mean “it’s really not fair how people outside of Scandinavia do dress up or write stories about Vikings” in a nationalistic sense, I’m going to back away very slowly. For one, the native-speaking Anglosphere which produces the bulk of films, books, re-enactments, etc about the Viking era and “Norse” mythology, has their cultural roots in Britain. Whose gods were Odin/ Óðinn/ Oden/ Woden/ Wotan et al because of Angle, Saxon, Viking ancestors, etc etc. Preciousness about how this mythology belongs only to Scandinavia is actually historically incorrect. Scandinavia is also not a colonised region the British invaded and repressed or stole their beliefs from (quite the reverse, lol). And it is not like Scandinavian countries don’t mess with the myths for fun and nostalgia either!
If you are talking from a Heathen perspective, I’m not really sure how there are LESS Heathens now than there were before last year’s ground-zero-fateful-movie-event. There’s certainly a lot of new ones around these parts. You might want to talk to the bones of Christian priests and converted kings 1000 years long dead about all that.
Real Vikings give it up the arse
Now finally, the thing which made my eyebrows disappear into my hair, is your statement about “homosexuality”, which seemed to come from left-field. I am guessing that for you, that this, more than any other kind of liberty taken with Nordic mythology in the name of meaningful creative expression or hateful racist propaganda or whatever, sticks in your craw. And I find it both sad and funny. I’m really really beginning to doubt that you know very much about pre-Christian Norse society at all (let’s pretend for yucks that the Norse were the only ones who worshipped or invented the gods in question, for now). Like many, many cultures across the world, the stigma attached to same-gender behaviour only extended to men (not women, note) who took it like a woman. There was actually no legal prohibition against it, but you could be shamed for it. It wasn’t so much about the act, but in behaving like a woman. Many behaviours caused this stigma to be attached that were considered too feminine for a good strong warrior. I suppose you’ve heard of níð and ergi? And male religious and magic practitioners of seething? There was also a distinction made between shunning reproduction, ie het marriage altogether, and casual gay sex on the side. Guess which one was heavily frowned upon. Despite that, men and women were sometimes buried together as couples. To say, as many more conservative fans of Norse mythology do, that the “Vikings” killed “homosexuals” (a term and orientation invented/recognised in the 19th century, incidentally, with “heterosexuality” decades later), is fanciful to the extreme, and smacks of modern homophobic wishful thinking, to be brutally honest. Also, blame the Christians. They, who recorded much of this, really didn’t like non-binary non-cis-het behaviour, and so we continue to the present day.
To quote from the excellent Viking Answer Lady: ”Thus, homosexual sex was not what was condemned, but rather the failure to stand for one’s self and make one’s own decisions, to fight one’s own fights, which went directly against the Nordic ethic of self-reliance. Being used homosexually by another man was equated with cowardice because of the custom of sexual aggression against vanquished foes.” Yep, dudes loved raping dudes they’d defeated. Fucking other dudes was expected as a proper man.
Odin begs to differ
Now let’s look at Norse (which isn’t just Norse) mythology. You claim no god was “homosexual” (love that word!) because if they were they would have been “killed”. Apart from the fact that the issues that the Norse did have with feminine human men were enacted as a kind of uneasy tolerance/shaming, they certainly didn’t seem to have too many issues with gods and old heroes who behaved in gender-inappropriate ways, including motherfucking Odin (who had a cult in his name that we think involved gay priestly sex. Also see Njôrðr and Freyr). If Thor didn’t like cross-dressing, is he excused in your eyes? The Lokasenna is a feast of gender bending! So is almost everything about Loki ever! Fucking men and male horses and giving birth! Shapeshifting! Cross-dressing! Only god getting killed is Baldur, in a story about mistletoe and rebirth!
Writes Freyia Völundarhúsins, (of Odin): “Now as to Odin, his name of “bitch” and “castrate” has been happily ignored by most popular presentations. He is supposedly the All-Father, the patriarch and king of a hierarchic pantheon, the god of war and human sacrifice, the ruler of Valhalla and an infamous lover. His role as a sexually ambivalent witch-god is less prominent in the popular image. His ecstatic character, his shaman behavior and his intimate association with the Great Goddess and the magical sphere of women are rarely explored any further, although some scholars certainly have shown that Odin was transcending boundaries to the extreme, also those of gender.”
Read the account by Freyia above of the duel of words between the sorcerer Sinfiötli, who represents Odin, and his old friend, now foe, Gudmundr, who represents Loki, in the poem of Helgi Hundingsbani. They very clearly had sex and raised children together. There are also accounts of other men and women in the poem who do not fit your idea(l)s of good cis-het Norse Viking type heroes.
All this objection to “Thorki”, fanfiction of fanfiction of fanfiction (yep), seems rather silly and pearl-clutchingly homophobic now, does it not? Cherry-picking objections. Not that queer sexuality should EVER need justification, least of all from you. As someone else said to you: “Step off”.
One of the best rebuttal posts I’ve seen on tumblr in a while.